Your Lease, Your Terms: Negotiation Strategies for Indie Retailers

"I know my rent is too high but I don't know what to do about it."

Sound familiar? For independent retailers, every margin point matters and nothing erodes profit faster than an occupancy cost that's quietly outpacing your sales. Rent is one of the largest fixed expenses on your P&L, yet most indie retailers leave enormous value on the table by never challenging it.

In this session, industry veterans Dane Cohen, Butch Blum and Ben Cohen will pull back the curtain on the art and strategy of landlord negotiations, sharing real-world strategies for rent reductions, abatements, and lease restructures that kept businesses alive through recessions, pandemics, and beyond.

In this session, you will learn:

• How to calculate your true occupancy cost percentage and what it actually means for your business's survival.

• Why starting your lease conversation 9–12 months out changes the entire dynamic (and what happens when you wait too long).

• How to identify verifiable, external factors that reframe your ask from "we need help" to "let's solve this together".

• Creative deal structures including tenant improvement allowances, rent abatements, de-escalator clauses, and percentage rent arrangements.

• How a strong landlord relationship can be your most valuable asset when things get hard.

• View the transcript

  Rent Negotiation for Retailers - Webinar Transcript

  Management One: There we go. Open up our waiting room. Perfect. Hello, everyone! Thanks again for joining us today. We've got a hot-button topic to talk about, and I'm really excited about this one, because here at Management One, we live in the inventory bubble, all things retail inventory related, and we always talk about inventory being one of the highest expenses in your business, but that's pretty close to your rent as well, so we wanted to put together a session here for you today to talk about the other massive expense in your business, and what you can do to help pull some levers to alleviate the impact to your overall bottom line. Before we get to our panel, though, I do want to address a couple of housekeeping items. So, number one. Is this session being recorded? Definitely, yes. We understand retailers are busy, we are recording this session, and we'll send out a recording at the very end if you have to leave a little early. Number two, this is a live session. We love doing this live because retailers have a lot of questions, and we want to hear what you guys have to say, so our panelists are live. Ready to answer your questions. If you see the Q&A button down there at the bottom, feel free and drop a question in there, and we're happy to answer it. And with that being said, I will turn it over to Mr. Dane Cohen from Management One.

  Dane Cohen: Thank you, Nico. Okay, so we are going to kick off, this very important topic with a little poll. So we want to get you guys involved, and just as a note, just to echo what Nico said. We always love audience participation. We want to hear from you guys, we want to be involved. This is, of course, for your benefit and the benefit of the retail community, so ask questions. This is why we bring experts into the fold, into the mix. Because we want to pick their brains for all the knowledge that's gonna help our business. So, don't be shy, write in questions, we'll try to get to them if they're relevant, while we're discussing, we'll ask it right on the spot, or we could save some time at the end as well. So, Nico, you're gonna put up that poll. We want to kick things off with a question for our viewers. Okay, and that question is, what is your current rent-to-sales ratio? So, approximately, what percent of sales are you paying in rent? I already see some answers coming in. Butch, you're not gonna be happy. But we got some answers rolling in. So, I'm just gonna read this off a little. We have an I don't know, which is a real answer. Above 10% and I don't know are neck and neck for the most, responded answers, followed by 7-10% tied now with 4% to 6%. So, in order, we have I don't know and above 10%. Next is 4-6%, and then 7-10%. So, Butch, first off, I want to introduce both our panelists. Butch is no stranger to the Management One community. He is a former retailer himself, an incredible store, menswear, womenswear, and a, analyst and retail expert here with Management One. So Butch, I'm gonna kick off with you, and then we'll introduce Ben, and Ben get you into the fold, but Butch… Based on the findings of this poll, where the number one answer was either, I don't know, or above 10%, can you give a little insight into where we should be striving to be in a retail business in 2026, in terms of rent?

  Butch Blum: Okay, thanks, Dane. I think that our goal should be, we want to be somewhere in that 4 to 6 range, if we possibly can. I realize that rents have gone up since we sold our stores 10 years ago, and probably 7 to 10 is what I would guess to be more the appropriate range now, but certainly we don't want it to exceed 10. And as we get into our discussions and talk about this a little bit more, hopefully we'll be able to give you guys some pointers as to how you might be able to get your rent factor a little bit lower. When I was in retail, we always tried to keep it around 5. I'd say if you could keep it around 6 or 7 today. You'd be doing a pretty good job.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, and Butch, listen, I know that there's an obvious answer here, but humor me for a moment. What is, like, how does that impact a business, right? A business that's paying 5, 6% of their sales in rent versus a retailer paying… again, we had a lot of answers, 10 or over. How is a business going to feel that?

  Butch Blum: Well, very simply, Dane, it's gonna feel it, because when you look at your P&L, you know, and as you go through line item by line item, as we discussed earlier, I mean, you know, your payroll's gonna be number one, but not far behind is your rent. And if that rent factor is going up dramatically, as we will talk about, let's say north of 10%, it's gonna squeeze the bottom line pretty dramatically. You're not going to have much left after all is said and done. Because as percentage points go, one or two points can make a huge difference into bottom line for a retailer.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, and it's interesting, because we have these conversations, you know, a lot with new clients and, you know, just people out there in the community we're interacting with. And that really is, obviously, inventory is the largest cash expense in your business, but, right, we're backing this up, right, but payroll and rent. And so, if those costs are ballooning and out of control, you know, we could try to correct it as much as possible with great inventory management, but there's only so much we can do, right? If the foundation of that business is not strong, we have a problem. So, Ben, bring Ben Cohen into the mix. Ben, could you give our audience a little bit of background of how you play into these rent discussions? You know, we brought you on here, could you let the audience know a little bit what your expertise is as it pertains to this topic?

  Ben Cohen: Well, Dane and Butch, thank you both for having me here, Nico. I've been with the local corporate subway office for about 23 years. And my most recent territory was 740 restaurants, doing about an annual business of $350 million in the Southern Maryland, Washington, D.C, and Virginia area. But I also recently worked with 11 brick-and-mortar location, sit and fit shoe retailer in California, and so today I wanted to focus on the leash negotiations work that I did with the shoe retailer, as well as provide additional perspective and tips that everybody can use and hopefully help in their business.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, listen, I find that very interesting, right? Because, you know, retail, obviously, there are so many unique aspects of retail, but this is happening in every industry, right? If you are paying for brick-and-mortar rent. this is an issue you're being faced with. So, I bet you there are some people on this call that may not even be direct retailers, maybe you're in other businesses, but this is universal. So, Ben, my first question to you is going to be. Why do you think this topic is, you know. unique to this moment, right? This is always a topic of conversation, this is always something that should be top of mind, and we want to strategize with retailers, but is there anything about where we stand today that makes this more relevant, less relevant? What's your insight there?

  Ben Cohen: Well, certainly the economic pressures that are out there, coming at us from every angle imaginable. So this is obviously a key line item that is top of mind for a lot of folks, and as we drill down a little bit more, it's just going to be important in that journey to have that relationship with the landlords in your businesses. And, how that can really help you, but also hurt you if you go about it in a way that's detrimental. So we'll get into more of the specifics of it, but it's really a key aspect of a P&L, like Butch was alluding to, and something that is definitely top of mind in this business environment.

  Dane Cohen: Okay, so Butch, let's, let's go in with where I find the most fascinating entry into this conversation. That is, I do find that a lot of retailers are sometimes scared to have these conversations. Right? You know, listen, there are a lot of experienced retailers on here that have been in business for many years, if not decades, that are used to dealing with landlords and know the ins and outs of this, but I think that there are a lot of people that think that they can't talk about this topic, right? That rent is a fixed cost, that's what it is. So, why don't you talk to us a little bit about what leverage do retailers actually have in these conversations?

  Butch Blum: It's a great question, Dane, and it's one, certainly, my early years in retail. I was as petrified as anybody to talk to my landlord about anything. I would avoid them at all costs. But, you know, over the years, I learned that, you know, they were our partners, and they needed us as much as we needed them, and I honestly believe, in many cases. they need us even more. It's not so easy to find a good tenant, to find a good retailer, and when you find one, it's gold, and it's essential, not just from your perspective, but from their perspective, that it truly becomes a win-win situation. So I think once you sort of break down those barriers, and just you know, make a friend, create a relationship, same as you do outside of retail. And once you've done that, then all of a sudden it doesn't become this adversarial kind of a relationship. It becomes a partnership. And once you approach it from that perspective, you'd be amazed how receptive they can be. And certainly, once you've been there for a while, the relationship grows, it builds, and then you have even more leverage to ask for things. And you should never, never, as Ben said, be afraid to ask, because you don't know if you don't ask.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, and I think that that's a great point, right? They're under pressure to keep these spaces filled, so I think the fear that you're gonna approach this conversation, and they're gonna say, get out of here, that's probably, not what's going to happen. So there's definitely room to open these up. Now, Ben, you alluded to, right, there are right ways to go about these conversations. And wrong ways. So, you know, we're gonna go into a little bit depth of, you know, the five case studies of the stores that you recently worked with in this topic, but what's maybe a wrong way to start approaching this topic?

  Ben Cohen: Well, let me go back just for one… build on what you asked, Butch. The other part, is that, especially coming from restaurants, a lot of these shopping centers have been filling because there's less and less overall retailers, brick and mortar, so they've been filling the shopping centers with lots of food concepts. And so when you come along as a shoe retailer, they can't believe it. It's a unicorn, because this is great for them. It also helps the tenants in the shopping center that have food concepts not be as upset. So that's just something to realize, too, as an added benefit of the kind of leverage that we do have with being a shoe retailer. In that regard. So, I think it's important when you talk about landlord relationships, communication is always good, in that aspect, number one. Number two. pay your rent early. If there's a way to feasibly do it, that is helpful in that business relationship. When they get their direct deposit on the 29th or the 30th versus the 10th, the 11th, because a number of people will say to me, well, I pay my rent on time, I pay by the 10th. well, the rent is due on the 1st, late by the 10th, in most cases, and so the more… that really helps Because landlords have very good memories, so when you go to renegotiate, or you go to… you're exercising an option, you're trying to renew your lease, or it's expiring, you want to be able to be in good standing with them, because they remember, and if you are not in good standing, they make sure to remind you, and the terms you get sometimes are not very favorable, and or they ask you to leave, so… Couple points on that, in that regard.

  Dane Cohen: okay, so we want to go into this, you know, on the up and up, right? We want to be buttoned up, and if we're going to go in and ask someone for a favor, we better be good tenants and have a clean bill of health, so to speak. That's actually very helpful, and you're right, they do not have, short-term memory. They have some good… good memory of what's… what's going on there. Okay, so Ben, I'm gonna… I'm gonna, you know, throw this back to you, and… and you worked with, now, 7 retailers, right, on this project, this specific, project. We're gonna show 5 of them, a little bit later as a case study. But do you just approach each one, like, the same? Is it just, hey, we're just gonna go right in and ask for a rent reduction? How does… how does it work in retailer to retailer? What are some of the differences that you're looking for when you start these discussions?

  Ben Cohen: Well, in this case, let me clarify. So, I worked for the one shoe retailer, but you're correct, we had… because we had multiple, locations, we did have multiple landlords, and what we looked at it. As was… it just depended. Was our lease coming up? Is it going to be expiring? Are we in the midst of a term? And is there an opportunity with the circumstances in the world? And we'll get into that more so when we drill down on it, but what are the circumstances that we can talk about with the landlord that they'll understand and be sympathetic to, to be able, in that partnership, to make sense for the both of us? Because it's gotta work for both of us, or it may not end very well.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, and so, Butch, that's probably a fear of a lot of retailers, right? I think the normal, feeling would be, you know, as I'm getting closer to the end of my lease term, that's when I can start negotiating or, you know, maybe asking, but if you're just in the middle of your lease. And, you know, what are the circumstances, like, how do you start approaching that conversation? I'm in the middle of my lease, what are the mitigating circumstances that are even going to… besides, hey, my sales are down, and I'm getting a little worried. Right? And, you know, hopefully they have a little sympathy, but… What else could… what else is kind of that entry point into these conversations?

  Butch Blum: So, I think the first thing, Dane, you need to think about is, for many retailers, they wait far too long to begin these discussions. Let's just say, hypothetically, they have a 5-year lease with a 5-year option. And so, maybe 4 years and 10 months into it, all of a sudden, they go, oh, gee, my lease is almost up here. I should reach out to the landlord and see what's going on with the You know, with the 5-year option, or, you know, maybe it's a 10-year lease, and I've got now five years left. You should begin these discussions at least a year, if not longer. In advance, to make sure that you're securing your future. And obviously, what's going on in your business in that particular point in time is going to have a huge impact and influence on how these discussions go. I think it's imperative that you remain transparent at all times, that the landlord knows exactly what's going on, you're not pulling any punches, and Let's just say, again, hypothetically, if things maybe aren't going as well as you would hope they would, or your landlord maybe hoped. you would start these discussions so there are no surprises, when all of a sudden you say to the landlord, you know, I'm really sorry, but I can't… I can't afford to pay this rent any longer. I need some help here. Hopefully, the landlord is going to be receptive to that because of some leverage you already can apply.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, that's a true… I think there would be a big instinct, right? And to maybe not share if sales aren't so strong, or… but you're actually saying bring them into the fold there.

  Butch Blum: Absolutely. The worst thing that you can do is create unknowns and create surprises for your landlord. They hate that. They want to know. They want to know if things are going great, because they're going to get their rent overage checks at the end of the year, and that's going to make them smile. But they're going to want to know if you're hurting a little bit, because they don't want you to go away. It's far easier to stay with and keep the tenant that you have, and that you've had for hopefully several years, many years, as opposed to going out and finding a new tenant. That's so expensive to do in so many regards.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah.

  Butch Blum: They don't want that.

  Dane Cohen: The devil you know.

  Butch Blum: Exactly.

  Dane Cohen: And, so Ben, okay, we've had a lot of world events happen, and there's a never-ending, it seems, world event after world event. So, you know, obviously COVID was the big one that really changed a lot of these, you know, there were, of course. just, infinite amount of rent discussions going on between landlords and tenants. You know, then fast forward, you know, several years, and we're talking tariffs, and now energy prices are, really a big, gonna be a big topic of conversation, and obviously, cost of goods are rising with all of the, you know, kind of delays in the… shipping and kind of supply chain. So, how do we use this, right? How do we use these moments, whether it be tariffs, whether it be the cost of energy, to actually leverage into these discussions?

  Ben Cohen: I think it's important, and that's what brought the example that we'll get into here shortly, but tariffs were announced the beginning of April, first week of April of 2025. It was a big announcement where everybody could understand that, whether you were in our particular line of work, landlords, everybody knew because it was announced on such a big stage. And then we had to give it some time to let it play out. To see what… how everybody was gonna react to it. The markets, vendors, so in our particular case for the shoe retailer I worked with, we let that play out for about, 4 months to see what vendors were going to do and what kind of pass-throughs that we would see, and that opened the door to the conversation. Alright, now it's time to contact the landlords. To reflect on that particular moment. And, use that opportunity, because it has an effect on our business, and just sharing… letting… to what Butch talked about, communicating, letting landlords into our, business to let them know how it's affecting us, and how we can partner better together going forward, and, and… See if there's something that can be worked out mutually beneficial.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, and so, okay, so let's get down to some specifics here. And then right after this, Ben, we're going to get… we're going to put some slides up, because I want to talk through, the examples here. But, Butch, could you maybe give me… give us some insight? And I'm going to kind of go through some, you know, key terms that you put out there that, you know, all retailers and tenants should know. By the way, we are going to send out an attachment after this webinar to give you, some key terms in this area, definitions, kind of a little cheat sheet, if you will, with, you know, going in for rent reduction. But when we say going in for rent reduction, Butch, what do we actually mean there? Like, you know, obviously there's a few different ways. There's grace periods, there's rent reduction, there's terms Can you go over just a little bit of the areas that we can start, you know, kind of focusing in on?

  Butch Blum: I think first and foremost, Dane, we need to make a clear delineation between the terms rent abatement versus rent deferral, okay? A rent abatement is forgiveness of rent. And that's always what you as a retailer are striving to do. And your landlord, on the other hand, is always going to be, striving to achieve a rent deferral, which means that they are not forgiving rent. They're literally moving it to a later time period. often toward the last 2 or 3 years if it's a long-term lease. So, eventually, you have to pay back the money on a rent deferral, so you're not really accomplishing anything, you're just winding up paying it a little bit later. If you get into present value versus future value, you're probably saving a few bucks, but nothing significant. So, what you really want to do when you're entering into a discussion or negotiation with your landlord is you want a rent reduction. You want a rent abatement.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah. And then… so then there's some hidden stuff in there, and Ben, maybe you could speak to this. There's other costs associated that surround rent. Which, you know, landlords could get a little tricky with, right? And even if you're getting that rent abatement, there are some of these other costs that could go up, or, you know, there's ways that they can be a little sneaky. So, what are we looking out for on that end of the spectrum?

  Ben Cohen: Well, we talk a lot about base rent, but there's also CAMS, Common Area Maintenance Charges, and that includes taxes, insurance, maintenance, it's a pass-through from the landlords. Now, sometimes you'll see things, and you as a tenant in the center, have the right for, to see, the CAM records. to be able to see if there's additional costs that are in there. Sometimes you'll see administrative fees, and it's worth asking that. What's this 10% fee that's in here to manage? Sometimes landlords will talk further about that, and you can get that reduced. In other cases, it is what it is. But it's a pass-through, and I'll give you just another small example where you could see it jump. Let's say, for example, you're in a shopping center. And you're paying $1,000 a month in cams. And then the shopping center is the original owner, they've owned it for 30 years, they sell the shopping center, and now the property tax basis goes up, and it passes through, and your cams jump up from $1,000 a month to $1,500 or $2,000 a month. You… that is a legitimate charge that potentially could happen and you would see, as an example, in these charges. So, overall, you have your base rent, then you have your CAMs, which are inclusive of all these other costs that are passed through from the landlord.

  Dane Cohen: So, Ben, like, I…

  Butch Blum: Dane, could I just add one thing to that?

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, of course.

  Butch Blum: So, when Ben is talking about CAM charges, understand, everyone, that he's talking about your pro-rata share. So, just hypothetically, if you occupy 3% of the total square footage in a building, a shopping center, whatever it is, then you're responsible for 3% of those CAM charges. And as Ben just pointed out, you know, if all of a sudden there's a change of ownership. You could be getting bumped up, call it a hidden cost, if you will, but it's something you didn't anticipate. But it's real money that you're paying. It's cost of doing business.

  Dane Cohen: Right, so in, you know, and that we, again, in our takeaway, we're going to give you, some strategies on what to look out for in terms of controlling, your CAM charges, right? Because there's… there's vacancy triggers, right? There's different things that, you know, could… could kind of get in there. I mean, just a kind of point-blank question, would you recommend, I mean, people… that are negotiating this, they should probably have some sort of backup, whether that be legal counsel. And sometimes, you know, especially more smaller retailers don't have that, so who should they be looking to for backup?

  Butch Blum: Is that directed at me? You want me to take it, Ben?

  Ben Cohen: You got it, Butch.

  Butch Blum: Okay, yes. The simple answer is yes. My very first lease that I signed in 1974 was 3 pages. The most recent lease that we signed in 2000 and, God, 13, I think it was, was 78 pages. I mean, I read over that lease so many times. I darn near memorized it. But the truth is, you know, I'm not a… I'm not a real estate attorney. You know, a lot of the things, I just wasn't sure what they were saying. So, we wound up hiring a good client of our business, who was a real estate attorney, who basically became our representative, and I can't even begin to tell you how valuable that was. He saved us so much money in the long run.

  Ben Cohen: And Butch, if I can add on to that, I echo what Butch says 100%, because I've had the benefit in the restaurant industry as well as the shoe retail industry here, to be able to see leases where For whatever investment the attorney or counsel or financial advice you could get that you pay is minimal. Compared to some of the clauses that are in these leases? Because remember, these leases are generally written landlord favorability… landlord… in the landlord's interest. And there's nothing wrong with that, but that's all the more reason where you need to protect yourself to see what terms and clauses you can live with, and what other ones you can… you can give in on. But professional counsel is always highly recommended.

  Butch Blum: Absolutely. Understand what you're signing, the document you're signing.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, and again, I think this is in a lot of areas in retail, and small business in general. In general, if you cut corners up front. you know, it could bite you in the butt, behind, on the back end. So, this is one of those areas, especially… this is not something that you're doing all the time, right? You want to get a… get this done right, and get this done on the first shot, so… Having someone to support you in that process is super important, and there's a lot of great resources out there. And I think this is one of those things, right? This is for clients of management one. These are open conversations you should be having with your analysts, because we have some great resources. We know Ben, Butch knows people, right? We have people that can support you, either directly or indirectly. So, just a perk of kind of being in that the community. Alright, Ben, I want to get into the details. So, thank you for the correction there. So, Ben was working with a shoe retailer with 7 different locations, or was it…

  Ben Cohen: We had 11 total, but 7 we worked on specifically, didn't renegotiate our leases.

  Dane Cohen: Okay, great. So this is interesting, right? Because this is one retailer that now has to deal with all of these different variables, and it's going to be different, you know, location to location to location. So, Nico, if we could pull this up, I want to look at, the case study that, just so that we can get some more information, and Ben, hopefully you could help shine a light on how you approached Each of these.

  Management One: I got you covered. As I'm putting that up, we have a lot of questions going in chat and in our Q&A. There was one that's a quick yes or no, so while I'm pulling these slides up, I just wanted to throw it out there. Maris is asking, should we include CAM charges when calculating rent-to-sales ratio?

  Butch Blum: I think you should. Yes. Basically, you're gonna get a lot of CPAs probably saying no, but it's your cost of doing business. It's an occupancy cost. So, yes, I think it should be included.

  Ben Cohen: I suck.

  Butch Blum: Sounds like you agree, Ben.

  Ben Cohen: Butch, I second it. Alright, thanks so much.

  Dane Cohen: I have one more, question. Sorry, because I like to get to them. Thank you for the interaction, and then we'll jump in with you, Ben. I know we're all chomping at the bit. Can the landlord add an additional fee at the end of the year because they overspent the CAM received for the year? Deborah, that's… I mean, that's a pretty specific question, so if we need to shoot… Do we want to take it offline, and we'll kind of get back to Deborah, we'll have her write in?

  Ben Cohen: I don't know how deep you want to go, Butch, on cam reconciliation, how that works. Yeah, you know what?

  Dane Cohen: Ben would be thrilled to talk cam reconciliation with you. But yeah, there's some variables here, we just want to know what the situation is, and either Butch, Ben, or someone from our team will be able to kind of go in there a little deeper. So let's make sure we get Debra's email, and we'll jump in. Okay, Ben. Let's look to the rent concessions case study. Okay, so we had 5 locations. That we actually got the rent concession. And, you know, then I think it's really important to say there were two that we actually maybe didn't get what we were looking for. So, it's just as important to know what goes right than, you know, maybe where we have opportunities to learn from. So, in total, for this retailer. 72,778. Why don't you walk us through what this project looked like and what the scope was?

  Ben Cohen: Thanks so much. So, we had certain locations, whether we owned the property or otherwise, it didn't qualify, but we identified 7 locations that we would talk with, and… and again, when you go through these… this process, it's not gonna always be 100% success, but you gotta ask. So, we'll focus on the ones where we were able to get concessions on. If we can go to the next slide, we'll drill down in some of the details there, specifically. So, this is store number one. This is in August, September 25. We knew we had about a year, just over a year left in our lease, and We had received rent concessions from this particular landlord in a prior time, so they didn't want to go back on the rent or reduce rent, so they did want to help us. They knew, and we had communicated, our particular store looked Little tired, needed some work, so we asked for TI, which is a tenant improvement allowance. So, in other words, this was $30,000 they would give us towards a remodel. So, all we have to do is submit the receipts, they cut us the check for $30,000. We are also, too. get an additional 5 years. So, we were gonna invest in the remodel, get additional term, and also, there's another ask that you… that we had in this, which is to hold the rent flat. Typically, you'll get an annual increase of about 3% CPI, Consumer Price Index, rate of inflation they have in there, and we were able to make that zero for the first 2 years. So the total concessions, $35,928, That was a huge win, and just by having that conversation and that partnership with that landlord. As we went to Store 2, we were able to achieve a 14% reduction, and again, this was that conversation I alluded to earlier about tariffs. Everybody knew what that was, and it wasn't some made-up story, but it was something That, that was out there in the, economic, ecosystem, so they knew. So the period was for the rest of 2025, $635 a month, and then we were going to see where that landed December in 20… December 2025, have another conversation for potential, continuing that on for a little bit more. Go ahead.

  Dane Cohen: So, Ben, I just wanna… because I think this is really interesting, right?

  Ben Cohen: Sure.

  Dane Cohen: Because these are two very different… outcomes, both saving money, but two very different outcomes. So, you know, being able to think bigger than just asking for a rent reduction, I mean, that's a brilliant thing to get your landlord to support those remodel costs. You know, because ultimately, not only are you going to get that savings that you would have spent, but it should bring you more money in the long run, right? Because you're going to have a beautiful new store, or a beautiful remodel, or, you know, aspects of the store that get updated, so you're not only getting that relief immediately, but you're also setting yourself up and investing in your business long-term.

  Ben Cohen: It's very true, and to your point, Dane, you have two different circumstances here. One where our lease was expiring in store 1, and Store 2, we were midterm. And usually midterm, it is more of a challenge to get concessions from landlords, but this is where you use those opportunities to have that dialogue with your landlord about where the business is at. So if we wanted to go to the next, slide, if we can, please. We had another store. Where we were able to achieve an 18% reduction. Now, this was a little bit more longer term. They were more generous in this case, in this neighborhood. So, this was for a longer time period here, for about 10 months. $1,431 a month savings for total concessions, $14,310. Store 4, 15% reduction, and this was a time period of 6 months, $2,000 a month over 6 months, $12,000, overall concessions we were able to get, with the landlord there. We can go to the next slide. And this is, Store 5, and in this case, we were already on a month-to-month lease. So, the leverage was there already, where we were deciding, do we keep it, do we close it? Landlord says, okay, no, no, no, stay put, we'll give you a $2,000 a month savings for the next 4 months, keep it open, total save was $8,000 a month. $8,000 total saved in this, 29% rent reduction secured. So this was another, again, a different circumstance. but able to look at that and customize an outcome that could work for the landlord and for us. They keep a tenant, we keep open, see if we can turn… help the business and improve it in that area. But this was a good outcome in this case, and… And, was able to keep it open. So, if we have, that… that's what was here, the full picture. So, again, we're not… we were able to get, out of the 7 total landlords we approached, we got 5 wins. That's pretty good. That's 71% success. Which is excellent. The two other landlords weren't able to come to the table and played hardball. In some cases, what happens is their centers are fully occupied, and they feel strong about their position, and they're not going to give in midterm. That happens. But in this case here, you can see the total, concessions that were earned. And then some of the takeaways there, like Butch had alluded to, number one, about asking early if your lease is coming up for renewal or expiration, to start having that conversation in that 9 to 12 months out. And there's pros and cons with doing that, but it seems like a good best practice. Number two is talking about the data, what's happening out there. economically. In this case, it was tariffs, but also, just be purely factual. It's not an emotional decision, but based on the way that traffic is happening, for whatever reason, that might be impacting our business. And then, the third, it's not just about rent reduction. Rent reduction means it's an umbrella of all these various, terms and tactics that you can talk to the landlords about. In some cases, they'll do rent reduction. In other cases, you saw, we got a $30,000 contribution towards a remodel. Because they didn't want to reduce their rent. So that's something to be aware of. Every deal was different, customized for the particular circumstance, and again. If you don't ask, you don't get. It's worth a conversation. I cannot say it enough. I think I've said it 14 times already, but it's a… it's definitely a big… big thing to do for the sake of your business, and that's what that last slide talks about, is exactly. Don't be afraid to ask.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, and there's another expression, never put a good crisis to waste, right? We want to take it…

  Ben Cohen: Never let a serious crisis go to waste, yeah?

  Dane Cohen: So, you know, that's definitely another way of looking at it, right? Listen, if the world's hurting and your pocketbook is hurting, everyone wants to band together. So, okay, we have, We have a lot of questions, actually, coming up around CAM charges. So, I'm going to kind of organize this a little, because we want to get people's, questions answered, especially on reconciliation. So, I'm going to put out there some strategies, you tell me, good idea, bad idea, okay? So here's… here's the strategies that we have for controlling costs, okay? Can we cap CAM charges? Tell us a little bit about negotiating a ceiling. Is that a good strategy to take?

  Ben Cohen: Yes, it is. If you can, of course, again, asking for it. Some landlords will do it as part of an overall package. Other landlords will not. They'll say, look, you know, our costs go up, it's a pass-through, we need to have a higher amount. Typically, it'll be 3%, but even if you can get You know, it will not exceed 5%, or obviously you're trying to lower it and trying to cap it at 2%, let's say, but even just so it's not way above, because, you know, if inflation ticks up, that can get quite costly.

  Butch Blum: And also understand, on the other side of things, they're gonna try to recoup as best they can whatever concessions they're giving you. So don't be naive in thinking that you're necessarily saving all that money up front. It's going to get you eventually. Understand they want to keep you as a long-term tenant, and part of that is making sure, from their perspective, whether it's TIs, rent reductions, whatever form it takes. They're gonna want to get more years out of the term from you, they're gonna want to get an extension, whatever it is, so that they have an opportunity to amortize their costs.

  Dane Cohen: Right, and then what about vacancy triggers? So, you know, if we're seeing the center occupancy fall, you know, how does that affect those CAM charges?

  Ben Cohen: Would you want to take that first?

  Butch Blum: Sure. The landlord's gonna try to… they're gonna do their darndest to get that extra money from you and the other tenants, so you're paying a penalty for success in staying in business, and you have to suffer you know, the loss of tenants, and therefore the loss of revenue to the landlord. Their nut hasn't changed. It's just, you know, the denominator has changed, you know? How many players are there now? So, it's gonna cost you a few extra dollars. Can you negotiate it? Of course you can.

  Ben Cohen: Yeah, and that… and the other thing that we talk about negotiating is, sometimes I've seen in leases where if the vacancies in the center reach a certain threshold, the rent reduction kicks in at that point because there's less traffic coming to the center. Again, you know, so if it gets 25% vacancy level, 50% vacancy level, the rent goes down. Not gonna always get it, but another point of being aware of something else, potentially can ask for.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, I think one of the headlines here is just be aware that when you're negotiating with landlords, you should be negotiating on gross rent, so they're not… you know, sneaking things in, and, you know, you want to really be focused on the gross rent and the, inflated… because you could negotiate on your base rent, and then they're sneaking in again those, inflated CAM charges, so that's why it's so important.

  Ben Cohen: And one other thing that can be done is if you have a location. that you're not sure about whether you're going to keep it or not, to what Dane just mentioned, and you're coming to the end of your lease, you can talk about a shorter-term lease, a one-year deal with a gross rent, which means a flat amount, I'm gonna use a number, $4,000 a month, let's say, as a gross rent, which is all-inclusive of rent, cams, everything, and do a one-year term, just to see if you can survive. Landlords may go for that, and it gives them a chance to look for another tenant if it doesn't work out, but that is something that we have seen out there before.

  Butch Blum: As well as a month-to-month option for, you know.

  Ben Cohen: Absolutely.

  Butch Blum: A lot of smaller retailers might be an option for them.

  Dane Cohen: Okay, so, I want to open this up, you know, we have 15 minutes left and still have a lot to chat through, but I want to open it back up to the audience to see if there are any questions. I see in the Q&A here… Okay, this is a big one, so let me try to read through it. Hi, Jennifer. Jennifer Shorter, a good friend of Management One. We have 2 landlords in our downtown who own a lot of properties, and they don't seem to understand that it's a partnership. Between the renters and them. one gets tenants in for the first lease, and then triples the rent when they go to sign the second lease, and they leave. Now they have multiple vacancies. The other one has a horrible reputation that no one can rent from them. How, as a downtown slash city, do we get them to stop these practices? Okay, so I think the larger question is. How, you know, how do you deal with some predatory landlords?

  Ben Cohen: Yeah, it's definitely tough, and there's no one size that fits all, and you have to also make the determination. Sometimes it's plain chicken. And if the rents become really unsustainable, you come to that crossroad, whether you think you can make it or not. and making your offer to the landlord on what you can or can't do. But just remember, when you go there, some landlords can be brutal and say, great, give me the keys, when you can, and in fact, we'll let you out of your lease early, because they want to replace you with somebody else, or… or otherwise, sometimes they'll give in, and they'll work with you. It just depends. It sounds like you got a tough circumstance there. And so there's no magic answer for what that will be, but definitely assessing whether you can stay, and it's still worthy for youth, and you can make money there or not, because last I checked, we're not in the nonprofit space, so…

  Butch Blum: We are not, you know, if I can just add on to that, Jane, I'll just give you a real quick anecdotal, you know, circumstance that happened to us many years ago. We had been in the same space for almost 37 years, and had the same landlord. And we were at a point where we knew we were going to either close or sell our business, and so… The next lease that we were gonna sign was gonna be our last lease, we knew that. While that was going on, while we were in negotiations with our longtime landlord, they sold the building.

  Dane Cohen: Hmm.

  Butch Blum: all of a sudden, we had a new landlord from the East Coast that had very different ideas in terms of what the space was worth. And we got into some really protracted, not-so-friendly discussions with them. And… my wife's opinion was, you know, we're just gonna sign one more 5-year lease, let's just do it and be done with it. Whatever they want, they, you know, fine. And I… I got… I got my backup, and I was… I was pissed. And so, I went looking for other spaces. So, to… is it Jennifer? Is that who this question… yeah. So, Jennifer. Don't ever sell yourself short in terms of how valuable you are in your community, and don't be afraid to go out there and see what there is. I wound up finding a space a little over a block away from our long-time space. And it was a different landlord, and they were so excited to have us that they gave us A $250,000 tenant improvement allowance. to build out the space. They gave us 3 months of free rent. and all sorts of other concessions. And we moved into that space. Our customers helped us move on rolling racks, and we had a phenomenal weekend.

  Dane Cohen: Record-breaking.

  Butch Blum: Our new location. And, it was just because we just decided, you know what? We're not gonna be pushed around. So don't sell yourself short on this, Jennifer.

  Dane Cohen: By the way, Butch, that is local retail right there, right? That's… that's independent retail.

  Butch Blum: It is.

  Dane Cohen: That story of the rolling racks and helping you move, right? That's so core to who we are. And just one more quick thing before we jump on, we have another great question. I think the subtext of Jennifer's question, and I'm very interested in this as well, if there are other tenants in a shopping center, in a community, in a downtown area. Can they kind of band together? Like, do you recommend that? Could they be feeding off each other and working together? Or do you kind of… and leverage that collective bargaining power? Or do you say, stay in your own lane, and you don't want to start, messing with that?

  Butch Blum: We were in constant contact with non-competitive retailers in our community about what was going on in downtown Seattle. Not only did we communicate with them, but we had retailers around the country. We were part of a group. And we shared information all the time about leverage and what's going on in leases, and how to get a better lease. We were able to negotiate de-escalator clauses in our last lease, which I had never even heard of before, that a friend in Charlotte told me about. And it really… Saved us a lot of money.

  Dane Cohen: Very cool. Okay, so strength in numbers. Okay, Maris asks, we have… this is a great question, Maris. We have a foot traffic challenge at one of our two locations. And we have 18 months left on our 5-year lease. Would you recommend sharing foot traffic numbers and sales-to-rent ratios of both locations. With the landlord of the struggling location as a leverage point. Without a rent reduction, we would not stay after our lease expires, and are even questioning if we should close sooner. For reference, there is a 17% sales-to-rent ratio at the struggling location.

  Ben Cohen: Nothing. Definitely a tough situation there, that's… that's for sure. Look, there's… It's bringing your landlord into the conversation of where you're at, and… And what challenges you're facing. I don't know, for example, and this is a tip for anybody, it opens this up, is that if there's a vacancy in your centers, particularly on the pole or the monument sign, for example, to help with visibility. You can ask the landlord, because they might be saving it for a tenant in the center that has a bigger square footage than you do, that you'd be willing to put up at your expense a sign until they populate that particular space. And some landlords will do that, others will not, but it just brings additional visibility there. So, to your specific question, bringing your landlord into that dialogue on where you stand, it won't be a surprise to them where you are. Obviously, that's a high percentage that you're dealing with there. The question is, too, about what you think you can work out now. and then potentially for additional terms. So, I think there's more particulars we need to learn about that, the vacancies in your center and others, but that's at least what I would recommend as far as Giving landlord… the landlord an insight into your business, for where things stand.

  Dane Cohen: Okay, great. Yeah, and listen, I think that this is… the common theme here has been a lot about, you know, sharing, bringing them into the fold on this.

  Management One: I'm actually gonna share in chat, we had a great conversation at Magic in Vegas, and one of our clients sat on stage and shared a great story about bringing their landlord into the fold with real hard data. So I'm gonna share that in the chat, the link to that conversation for folks.

  Dane Cohen: Awesome, thank you, Nico. Okay, by the way, guys, I love these specific questions. Ben and Butch, if you have a little more juice in you, we got two more good questions. Here, and we, again, appreciate your expertise in really helping out. I mean, this is what this is all about, helping out independent retailers. So, Brenna, I'm entering my third year of business, and the end of a two-year lease. I want to stay. I know my landlord has multiple other vacant properties, so I'm sure they'll want to keep me. I'm still a little new to business and building my customer base and reputation, so rent is a high percentage of my sales, but my growth has been steady. What length of lease should I aim for, and how do I negotiate the terms and rate, knowing that I'm still in a startup growth phase?

  Butch Blum: You want to take that, Ben, or do you want me to?

  Ben Cohen: Go ahead, go ahead. I took last one, you take this one. Okay.

  Butch Blum: Brenna, good question. Use where you are today if you're comfortable with your percentage, that you're paying. If not, then you need to think about, you know, trying to leverage the situation and lower your rent factor, or start looking at other spaces. I'm a big believer in, In… extensions that allow some flexibility. And when I say flexibility, I mean options, okay? So, for instance, you're in a 2-year lease situation, so what you might want to think about is, is, is, a little bit more long-term, maybe locking yourself in to a rent for 5 years, if possible. At the very least, maybe 3. And then give yourself a 3-year option, if it's a 3-year lease, or a 5-year option, if it's a 5-year lease. And when I say option, Typically, there are certain benchmarks that are established, and they need to be two-way benchmarks, where if you're not attaining certain levels or certain goals set by you and the landlord, you have an option to exercise your out clause and terminate the lease. But understand that in a two-way discussion, the landlord will have the same opportunity to do it. What it does is it gives you flexibility, it allows you, if things aren't going well, to get yourself out of a bad situation. To use an example, the discussion that we just had about 17% rent factor and still having 18 months on a lease. If there were options available, then she wouldn't even have to go to the landlord. There would be benchmarks established. Where she could get out of her lease right now if she wanted to.

  Dane Cohen: Okay, great. Thank you, Butch. Okay, here's what I want to do, now, if Nico allows me, because we have two, again, other questions that I think are these very thoughtful and pretty specific questions, which I'm sure is beneficial to the audience, and people will want to hear this, but I do want to close down the discussion, and then we could… Ben, if you have a few minutes, Butch, if you have a few minutes to stay on and answer this question, and go over a little, but just to wrap up, you know, our kind of core webinar, chat. Ben, any final thoughts just on how retailers, you know, should really be behaving and thinking, as we move into… and what I think is going to be really interesting is just these energy costs and how that's going to filter down to the business community. So, just final thoughts from you on, you know, where retailers' heads should be at when it comes to these discussions.

  Ben Cohen: Yeah, I think it's easy to go… not think positive, but I'm bullish on the marketplace, and it's just being able to stay on offense. The tendency sometimes is to… is to pull back and reduce hours and cut staff and do those types of things, and the more that you are able to continue investing in the business, this is where this cost discussion is at least on the rent, and what we've talked about here today can be very helpful to you as a tool. It's not going to solve everything, it's a tool in the toolbox. But, so that's one part, is dealing with, the rent and those economics. But as far as in the day-to-day business, staying positive, continue to invest. And I believe that we'll continue to remain strong, and others that are gonna retreat and pull back, I don't think that's going to end as well. I've seen that movie happen on more than one occasion.

  Dane Cohen: Thank you, Ben. Ben, it was really great to get, you know, some of these specific examples. I know sometimes we talk in generalities, and it's really great to see, like, hey, here's what really happened. So that was such a great layer to this discussion. But, any final thoughts before we get to just these two more questions, which, again, are fantastic questions.

  Butch Blum: I just think, you know, as an overall thought, Dane, you know, what I'd like to say to the independent retailers is that, you know, this is a tremendous opportunity for you. You know, you read the news, you see that Neiman's is closing stores like crazy, Saks is closing stores like crazy, Nordstrom, if they didn't have the rack, probably wouldn't be in business today. People, it's really interesting. My kids' generation, They want to go into stores. They love the experience, the touchy-feely. They love special events, trunk shows, demonstrations. you have an opportunity to do things that can't be done online, that big stores just don't have the capability of doing. So I just think it's a really great opportunity for you, and I encourage you to not, as Ben said, don't be timid. On the contrary, you know, be assertive. Get out there and be aggressive. You know, whether it's utilization of social media, whatever it is, make your presence known. I think it's a great opportunity for indie retailers.

  Dane Cohen: By the way, can I tell you something fun there, Butch? By the way, I think there's just a general bullish feeling about the market right now of independent retail. But with the experience, and as customers looking at retail as an experience right now, there's two things, very interestingly driving. is that, one, Gen Z is drinking less, right? So all of a sudden, they're looking for alternative activities, and shopping and being out during the daytime is one of those activities. And two, the crazy, you know, kind of Ozempic revolution is, one, people need new clothing sizes now, so they're getting out there and shopping, and they're more confident in doing so. Right? They feel better, you know, about themselves. They want to go out, they want to shop, they want to be in store and working with people. So there's kind of two different generations using, you know, two different modes to get back into stores. So just interesting that I think there is a lot of bullish feelings, on retail. Just a quick housekeeping, and Nico, you'll jump in with me as well. We will send this recording, it will go out. Via email, and we're also gonna send out some, a little… rent cheat sheet. So, here's just an example. We're gonna have all those terms. So, Jason, I see that you asked, can you recommend resources that show current common terms? We got it right here.

  Management One: Yeah, one of my dad.

  Dane Cohen: sending this out to you with options and leverage. Look how old school I am, I have a piece of paper, could you believe it? So Jason, we'll get that out to you. Nico, any other housekeeping before we get to these two questions?

  Management One: No, yeah, I'll be sending an email out for folks, and also keep in mind we have another session next week that I'll be sending an email for you as well, a brand new topic for us to discuss, but first, let's get to these questions here.

  Dane Cohen: Okay, Jacques. I currently have a gross lease with a 3% increase a year. My landlord wants to switch me to a triple net lease. I've been there 17 years, and I don't want to make that adjustment. I do have a decent relationship with him, I'm not afraid of speaking to him. There are 3 tenants in the building that have actually signed that triple net lease. We're also planning a remodel. I was wondering if I can negotiate the real model. I never thought about that until I heard your panelists. Thank you, Ben and Butch. Where could I find leverage to keep my rent where it is? And listen, he's up against 3 other tenants who have agreed to this, so Jacques, I get where you're coming from. So, Ben Butch, any idea, any thoughts there?

  Butch Blum: Yeah, go for it.

  Ben Cohen: No, no, that's, that's an interesting, dilemma, that you have. And, and so… you know, I think it is worth the dialogue to see if it makes sense, what kind of TI would be offered. Now, there is that exposure, and you're right. by breaking that gross arrangement you have to something more traditional, let's call it. So, I think that's where you have now in the back of your mind about TI and remodel and other ways, but at the same time, boy, if you could keep what you have as a gross lease, I mean, that's… that's a real asset to have, but I think it's worth a dialogue to show, at least, that you're willing to listen, and you're willing to engage in the dialogue instead of just saying, no. And that's it. So that, I mean, if I was in your shoes, again, that's how I personally would approach it, but obviously you have to assess it yourself. Bring in the conversation with the landlord, have that, see where you can get to, and then take it offline. You may not decide that second, but digest their point of view to see what makes sense for you.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, and, you know, I think you really gotta leverage that 17 years. And, you know, you probably were the reason other tenants came in. You helped build that traffic, so I don't know how long the other tenants have been there for. But, you know, if you were kind of in there years before them or sometime before them, you know, your landlord has to give you the respect of having built this You know, with him. So, you know, hopefully that could be a little leverage there, too. And Todd. Todd, Todd, Todd. Hey, Todd, good to hear from you. It's been a while. Always love to hear from Todd. So, Todd, of course, oh, he is… he forgot about the webinar and just came in a few minutes ago. Classic Todd. But he has a question. My… My highest volume store got hit with a double whammy. The opening of a brand store, one of our top-selling vendors. and the closing of the Macy's store directly adjacent to us. That is a double whammy. This was last March. We subsequently lost 60% of our revenue. The mall was also up for sale, and maintenance and such just suffered terribly. And the landlord has been completely unresponsive to engage in rent reduction discussions. There's good news, though. This is the long one. Dillard's. just replaced Macy's, so we'll hopefully be back on track. I reduced my rent to 8% of sales with the last landlord, but I now negotiate with our new landlord on what should be due for the past, as well as going forward. Any thoughts?

  Ben Cohen: What's you first?

  Butch Blum: There are a lot of thoughts there. Yeah, that's got many layers to it. You know, Dillard's moving in, I think… personally, I think they're a better operation than Macy's by a long shot, so I think it'll… I think your volume will go up accordingly there. You know, I think, certainly, I have a question to one of your questions, and that is, you haven't indicated how much longer you have on your lease. You know, 8% certainly is not bad. I would encourage you, I think, Todd, to, engage in extension conversations, and then you can make rent reduction part of that conversation. Because what they're really interested in is getting you locked in long-term. So if there's a way that you can do that, That will not hurt you dramatically. it's going to be hard for you to replace all of that 60% immediately, but I think you have to look more long-ranger here in terms of your discussions with them, and think about what your business can be 2 and 3 years from now, and then work backwards from there in terms of what you can afford to pay rent-wise. And maybe. And maybe you might want to consider approaching them with a percentage rent situation in the short term as you're waiting for Dillard's to go in and for you to build back that brand awareness. You know, it's interesting, I was always concerned about competition and people having the same brands that I had. What we learned over the many years in our business was that often it was the opposite. Often, when we had a next-door neighbor that competed with us, it brought more traffic to the neighborhood, and so long-term, it wasn't a bad thing. In those days, Barney's was a big deal, and they had a store right next door to us they moved in, and we were petrified of what that was going to do for our business. And on the contrary, it helped our business significantly. It wasn't unusual for someone to come into our store and shop And as they were paying for the merchandise, discovered they were not in Barney's, they were in Butch Blum. And so, I think it can help long run, but I'd have to ask you some questions, and I don't want to take too much time here. So, if you want to offline, you know, get in contact with me, I'd be happy to discuss it with you further.

  Dane Cohen: Yeah, Todd, you could send me an email, and I'll, try to connect you with Butch directly, and we could chat it out for sure, or, you know, kind of, bring in some other resources, but absolutely, we will… and… Okay, thanks, Todd. And then one more, we just have Edgar. Edgar, I think this is… I don't know if there's a question in here. But Ed… Edgar is just, sharing that we've been operating in the South Florida market for about 4 years, last 2 years in our current location, before that in a much smaller and less visible space. We moved into the new location thinking… at which doubled our rent, expecting stronger growth. However, sales remain relatively similar, and now with tariffs that have increased our cost. Our margins are tighter. They like the space and the location still has potential, but we're trying to approach the renewal cautiously. The landlord doesn't seem very receptive to lowering the rent. But they are open to discussion. So, Edgar, it sounds like, to me, if you're doing similar sales to a smaller, older location and paying double the rent. And your landlord isn't really open to reducing rent or talking negotiations, you know, that's obviously the first place that you're going to want to start, but I think it may also be, maybe there are other Options out there. So I think we'd want to know how much time is left on this lease you have now. But again, if your margins are tighter, costs are increasing, sales are staying the same, and you don't need that bigger space, even though it's nice to have, you know, I think exploring your options may be good. Butch, Ben, I don't know if you have a different perspective, but…

  Ben Cohen: Yeah, that's tough when they don't want to go back on the rent, that's, that's for sure. And if there are any, things that that can help. One other ask, which, again, doesn't go towards the base rent, but something else, for example, if you can get a replacement of an air conditioning unit, for example, that sometimes is $10,000 or $15,000, and that's something that, coming into the summertime, that you know it's gonna It's not gonna work, and you're gonna have to, you know, put out that money. Maybe they're willing to do something like that, because again, they don't want to go back on the rent, but is there something else, as you continue to move forward here? It's definitely a challenge. When, as landlords, don't always see eye to eye, but important to keep engaging with them to see, ultimately, what they're willing to do or not to do, and then you have some financial decisions to make.

  Dane Cohen: Awesome, and then Nico, I saw Beth raised her hand. I don't know if we could actually… let Beth…

  Management One: Beth, if you're still here, I can hot the mic if you want.

  Dane Cohen: Beth, hot mic.

  Management One: always dangerous, but we like living on the edge here at M1.

  Dane Cohen: We trust Beth.

  Beth Riser: I clicked on it by accident. But I love… well, I don't love hearing this, but it's amazing how many of us have situations with our rent right now. So, I have a landlord who's trying to take care of me. He's actually gonna move me across the street, so I get better foot traffic.

  Ben Cohen: Very cool. Oh, wow.

  Dane Cohen: Third guy. There you go, like, these negotiations, these talks, they're gonna come in all shapes and sizes. But I, again, I think the headline here is these are the conversations that we need to have, as independent businesses. you know. pushing through and fighting for our space in the larger retail industry, and independent retail, right? We always hear, every year is the end of independent retail, and every year we come back stronger and stronger. So, it's great to see everyone out there fighting the good fight. Ben and Butch, thank you for being such great panelists today, I think that this was one of the most interactive and specific webinars I've been on, so this was really great to hear, a topic that people need to hear. Again, we will be sending out this awesome little cheat sheet model for you guys, and if you have any questions and want to follow up, Nico, who should they email? And we'll kind of field questions to the right people.

  Management One: If you don't mind me putting it in chat, I'm gonna put your email address in there, Dan.

  Dane Cohen: Oh, there you go.

  Management One: We're going direct to the source here. I dropped it right in the chat for you folks. But the email you're going to be getting with the recording is marketing at management-1.com, so feel free to reply to that as well. We have lots of entry points, or I also put our website on the chat as well.

  Dane Cohen: All right, guys, and as always, thank you to the Management One clients joining us and our partners, and if you are interested in learning more about Management One and our services, Nico, you'll drop that Get Started. link right in there, and we will follow up, as well. So, thank you, everyone. I know we went a little over, but such a great conversation. Ben Butch, a pleasure. Nico, as always, thank you for being our… Sherpa of the webinars.

  Butch Blum: Thanks, guys.

  Ben Cohen: Thanks, Juan, thank you so much.

  Butch Blum: Appreciate it. Thanks.

  Ben Cohen: Thank you.